Despise

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Despise

Postby DevilSpawn » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:58 am

I think we should do the fel champ spawn in despise as an event...

It always spawns as a rat. It's the "PvP hotbed." We should encourage people to bring their reds and necro mages. We would for sure get action there. It'd probably be us raiding at first and then us getting raided for the whole rest of the event. If we don't get raided, it's a super easy spawn because it's in a really small area that's really easy to clear. Level 4 also only spawns on the island and one guy can easily and very quickly solo level 4.

There are only two ways into the spawn area too, so we could practice defending it. We will lose it almost every time we try, I think, but it only takes like 15 minutes with a few people to run it to the 4th level--so we won't be losing an hour of time like we would at an undead spawn in t2a some place... we'd just lose 15 minutes... we could try it multiple times.

Until we can hold despise against a raid, I don't think we should attempt a harrower... and I don't think we should bother doing Oaks until we are confident that we won't lose a harrower when we attempt it. In other words, the progression should be Hold Despise against large raids with regularity --> do oaks --> do harry

I think Oaks should be removed from the calendar until then and a number of the "fel CS" events and the "oaks" events should be replaced with Despise.
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Postby Maldar » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:59 pm

Just my 2-cents' worth, but I think it would be to our advantage if we didn't announce on the calendar where we were going when we do champ spawns in Fel. Can the calendar be made private for things like that and public for "non-raidable" events? (Really not trying to step on anyone's toes here.....just a thought.) The next Publish is supposed to put a stop to "unattended" camping of champ spawns by a ghost or hidden player. (Still wondering how OSI will do that...)
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Postby Ciara » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:53 pm

I would prefer the calendar didn't read "Oaks Spawn" to the public. It would have been really nice to finish that Oaks Spawn yesterday, which possibly we would have done if COP didn't know about it. We were only seconds away.

Its somewhat disheartening going to an event pretty much knowing we are going to be raided, as many of us don't know tactics to defend.

Devilspawn's idea of trying Despise is a good one. The practice defending there would be good, if people are up to trying. A lot of people might like to help but don't know how to help or what to do.

I don't know if we need to give up doing Oaks, but making an announcement in private forums about the Oaks seems like a better way to do it to me, if we want that skull. If we had a couple more people there, we probably would have pulled it off, but with the numbers we had, and the lack of defense, we just didn't have the power to keep COP from coming in and keep killing the champ.
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Postby DevilSpawn » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:02 pm

Changing the calendar might deter recruitment, but I dunno how many people go to the website then contact KD... and say "hey i saw you guys did champs? can I join?" If that number is close to 0 (as I suspect it is), then it doesn't matter to me.

Doing oaks for a public harrower (as is on the calendar now) and public harrowers are both fine with me... if not holding the spawn is the point of the event, hehe. Seems sort of silly though since, at least at this point, I don't think we have a large number of PvPers that'll fight to hold a harrower.

I wanted Despise named on the calendar because it's going to attract a different kind of member. I've seen "fel CS" on the calendar and said "ehhh... not tonight, don't feel like pvm for an hour." If it said "despise" then I'd know to show up on a pure PvP character and be ready for a fight in 10 minutes.

I am guessing that if we ever did despise, we'd go over defense in the first 5-10 minutes of event time in some detail, maybe even with a gate to tram despise to show choke points, sparkly locations, etc.
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Postby Taylanna » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:04 pm

We can always put on the Calender (F CHAMP) and not say which one, then in Alliance announce which one we're going to be doing....
It's easier then letting people know what it'll be...
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Postby Ariel Joy » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:25 pm

Ciara, I am pretty sure that we killed the champ last night at Oaks. They were busy fighting our PVPers and some of us we able to continue killing the champ. When the champ died I hid instantly. But I didnt get the skull or any scrolls. I was able to get out alive with the help option. Which is good because I can't PVP. They all move too fast for me. So we did succeed. How come we didnt get the skull or any scrolls. I am a real dummy when it comes to Champ Spawns.
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Postby DevilSpawn » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:59 pm

Ok.

For despise, it doesn't matter if we announce it or not. It'll get raided. Everyone's watching it 24/7. The idea is to get raided on that one... and if someone coincidentally doesn't show up for the 20 minute that it takes us to do it, then great.

I'd like to know what nights we are doing despise because I want to go (rather than doing some other spawns that I don't enjoy as much). It doesn't need to be posted if that makes folks more comfortable. (Maybe someone could message me or I could find some way to check)

I think if someone is really interested in raiding PAS and they bother to look at the calendar, we're getting raided if "fel cs" is posted, no matter whether we post a location or not. Any single person can scout all the spawns in T2A and the dungeons in maybe 20 minutes.

We should talk about whether we're doing champ spawns for the PvP or for the scrolls. If its for PvP, we shouldn't ever do any spawn except Despise if we've got enough people online to have a good fight (3 people vs 20 isn't fun). If we are doing champs for scrolls, then we should carefully avoid giving away our plans and consider not posting our champ spawn intentions on the calendar. If we're doing it for both, well, whatever is fine then.



Ariel, the person who does the most damage to the champ gets the skull. Who gets the scrolls is random and anyone that killed spawn (or maybe even was in the spawn area) can have them drop in their pack if they remain in the area when the champ dies. It's likely that someone in PAS got the skull then got killed by COP and COP looted it. The skull is insurable. If you get it, insure it right away. Scrolls are not insurable and were likely looted by COP (if scroll getting people died).
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Postby Maldar » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:19 pm

If we want what items we can get from a Champ, then posting that we are going to any Champ Spawn is a bad idea......even if it is a "generic" post that just says "CS" or whatever. We can post a decoy on the Calendar using a codeword of some sort. Maybe post something completely uninteresting like "Log Farming." Then, in the Tavern, post what we are really going to do. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but it is worth a shot. It would be nice to actually get a benefit from Champs other than some experience at PVP as we die left and right. The main reason I don't go is:

1) My neuromuscular disease makes my hands shake too badly to be effective at fast-paced PVP and, as I've said before, I don't have any interest in "donating" my hard-earned gold, in the form of my insurance, to some snot bubble COP that is scripting his butt off.
2) What's the point if there is nothing material to be gained?

Just my 2-cents' worth...
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Postby Maldar » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:21 pm

I can't help but wonder if the COP that "helped" us (didn't he/she also bring a Greater Dragon?) was the one that did the most damage and got the skull.
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Postby DevilSpawn » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:27 pm

2) What's the point if there is nothing material to be gained?


What? What's the point of doing a spawn is there is nothing material to be gained? I guess for the PvP. I don't understand what you're saying there... unless you're saying that Despise sounds great since you'd be going there with the intention of PvPing rather than with the intention of getting loot... though hopefully we'd also get loot.
Last edited by DevilSpawn on Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ciara » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:27 pm

Maldar, that wasn't a COP that helped us. That was Lovely of SL (unless he changed guilds) who is a PAS Elder on his red alt. We needed red alts there. That's why we asked no one to attack him--he was definitely there to help, and comes often. I know its confusing, but just trust us on this.

Also, some people want the experience of getting good at pvp--or just enjoy that play style. Those people would probably enjoy doing Despise.

If you do not see yourself wanting to pvp at all, maybe skip those events, go when we have a champ spawn to attack monsters, and run away or hide if we get raided. Some folks do not like pvp and don't want to do it, but enjoy getting to get the scrolls. We can't count on getting the scrolls any time we go.

Some of us (I'm one) aren't good at PvP but trying to learn to do better. I enjoy getting the scrolls cuz it means we were successful, but if we have a good fight and learn, and people aren't bummed out then I'm glad too. If I learn more about pvp tactics (such as the night Devilspawn ran the team tactics for the Harrower) then I'm learning something I'm interested in, and that makes me glad , too. That night all I did was stealth around to watch for incoming enemies, and rez our folks. I did shoot a couple people when they attacked.

If you are interested in helping or learning some of it, we're happy to have you do that. If its the last thing you want to do, you sure don't need to do it, Maldar. You do tons for the guild, and making things for those who do the pvp such as your crafting, is an enormous help . too.

Why do it? To have fun with friends is the main reason!
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Postby Atta Kquast » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:02 pm

I think its great there has been enough interest in champ spawns due to great experienced folks coming over to Sonoma, new loot opportunities (Scrolls of Trancendance, Artifact Replicas), and the rekindled PVP spirit of old-timers (such as Devilspawn...who I cant believe I just called old-timer). Some of us just aren't good at PVP, but really enjoy the PVM and support roles of champ spawns. PAS biggest strength is numbers, and our biggest advantage that we never use to our advantage much. So the more people, even dedicated spawn killers, the better PAS will be. There was a great post from DS over in the PVP forum I think on roles somewhere.

The calendar issue comes up in these cycles... I remember one time about 6-7 years ago maybe we advertised Bog I think. Man we got steamrolled, lots of armor got lost by our side, lots of frustration on our side. It was bad. I ICQ'd KD and I was ticked off. He reminded me that its the double-edged sword of letting folks know we are very active in all game aspects and we are a transparent guild. We have not only a set schedule, we meet at the same place, we publicly post our events and we are generally open to all comers with very very few exceptions. Even if you leave PAS, you are generally welcomed back into the fold. Its a part of who PAS is.

When PVP events cycle back with regularity, we have a slightly new face with a similar problem: PAS isn't very good at champ spawns because we don't practice them as regularly as we should if we want to compete with other guilds. We just have the equivalent of a lop-sided basket brawl pick-up game. Which is great, don't get me wrong! Just set your expectations accordingly. There are strikes against us: we collectively are not good at PVP, there are cheaters, and some mechanics are broken (ghost cams). But all that said, its proven that PAS can overcome that stuff occasionally, and we are much better when we practice and play to win.

I see I am rambling, so to the point. The raiding aspect of champ spawns doesn't matter.

1) Ghost cams are almost instantaneous give aways of control (going to be fixed theoretically). This isn't cheating and within the mechanics as is. They did fix trial accounts, but still aways to go. Some do cheat with scripting programs that feed data to webpages. Really not necessary, but eh.
2) It takes maybe 10-20 min to run to each spawn, without cheating or using tons of char/ghost cams, to determine whats going on ever before we make it killing the champ ourselves. Get a few guilds running around, overlapping ground, plus do it at prime times (including our long set time regardless of calendar posting).
3) We cannot defend a champ spawn well, let alone take one from some other guild.

The greatest thing we can do at a champ spawn is kill the spawn as fast as possible, regardless of all the other aspects. That is what keeps you ultimately from goodies.

Sorry Maldar, I am eating a grilled cheese and my mind seems to have drifted a ton... :P

Maldar wrote:If we want what items we can get from a Champ, then posting that we are going to any Champ Spawn is a bad idea......even if it is a "generic" post that just says "CS" or whatever. We can post a decoy on the Calendar using a codeword of some sort. Maybe post something completely uninteresting like "Log Farming." Then, in the Tavern, post what we are really going to do. Maybe it will work, maybe not, but it is worth a shot. It would be nice to actually get a benefit from Champs other than some experience at PVP as we die left and right. The main reason I don't go is:

1) My neuromuscular disease makes my hands shake too badly to be effective at fast-paced PVP and, as I've said before, I don't have any interest in "donating" my hard-earned gold, in the form of my insurance, to some snot bubble COP that is scripting his butt off.
2) What's the point if there is nothing material to be gained?

Just my 2-cents' worth...
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Postby KDSonoma » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:50 pm

if we try to be "sneaky" and not post on our calendar what we are doing, (1) we will get 30% less folks, because people want to know in advance what the plan is, and (2) there have been over 4,500 players that have been in PAS in 11 yrs. The likelihood of a "spy" or a legitimate scout seeing us while we do something ingame is about 95% (even when we try to be sneaky).

So we limited our numbers, and the bad guys know anyways.

if we try to be sneaky, people will say "they have to sneak to do a spawn".

if we post publicly on our calendar, with very specific information, people say "wow no other guild has the cojones to do that". And we end up with the same odds of being raided and winning the fight. And we dont worry about spies or traitors etc. We laugh that off, and that limits a lot of possible drama.

if we post publicly on our calendar, and talk about it in the open like we are here, people say "wow those guys sure arent trammies".

We gain respect from the players who we care about gaining respect from (not the retarded punk pk griefers, we dont ever want their respect hehe), our members get a sense of confidence, because we are successful more times than anyone wants to admit, and we gain experience for everyone that comes along with us.

Why do we do fel CS?

1. Some of our players love those, and we do events for ALL the players in PAS, not just for a select few.

2. Some of our members enjoy supporting the team from the pvm perspective, so they have fun doing that even if they hate to pvp.

3. And this is a VERY distant 3rd in my book ... because our players get chances to roll dice for cool items when we finish the CSs.

If we did them only for the scrolls, I would never schedule them. PAS isnt about greed (which I believe is the primary reason that many red guilds do those). We are about inclusion, and about opportunities to do as many things as possible within UO for our members.

Now all that being said ... I like the idea of doing despise as our fel CS from time to time, so Ill change some events to that for March. I think those would be good practice, can be done quicker, and we can practice raiding others. And believe me, its SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much easier to raid someone elses spawn than to do the spawns.

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Postby Maldar » Tue Mar 10, 2009 8:52 pm

*Slinks away with tail tucked...*
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Postby KDSonoma » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:16 pm

*throws water on Maldar*

hehe goober :)

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