The importance of DCI

Anything related to template questions/advice etc

The importance of DCI

Postby DevilSpawn » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:55 pm

This is probably the most important information I've ever posted on any UO forum. Every player in PAS should carefully re-consider their suits after reading this post.


I found some equations over on stratics for chance to hit. Here they are. I'll go into how important these are shortly.

FORMULA:
Hit Chance% = ( ( [Attacker's Combat Ability + 20] * [100% + Attacker's Hit Chance Increase] )

divided by

( [Defender's Combat Ability + 20] * [100% + Defender's Defense Chance Increase] * 2 ) ) * 100

That looks annoying to mess with. This is probably the most important formula for PvM meleers and every single type of pvper.

So before AOS the system on chance to hit was a simple comparison of your fighting skill vs their fighting skill. If you were both at GM, it was a 50% chance to hit. The way the formula here works though is really different. HCI and DCI are incredibly powerful. The relationship between skill and HCI/DCI is multiplicative though, so you really need both (skill and HCI or DCI)...

So every single pvp or archer out there runs more than 30 hit chance increase. It's likely that they run 45. Let's assume they run 45... if they don't run about that much, then they're trash and you should be able to easily kill them regardless of your DCI.

Let's assume that you and they both have 45 HCI.

You're getting hit
They have 45 HCI, you have 0 DCI,
72.5% chance to hit.

How many of you necro mages out there run 0 DCI? How many of you have 120 magery for your mage weapons? If you have 110 skill and 0 DCI it's 78% chance to be hit. That really sucks. You're going to get owned.

If you have 45 DCI and they have 45 HCI,
you have a 50% chance to be hit... that's a huge improvement. 45 DCI might cost you a bunch of mana regen or require that you change your template. If you're ever taking damage in pvp, you'll be screwed without DCI.

Let's say you have 0 DCI, they have 45 HCI.. and Hit lower D. on their weapon. This stat has a chance to proc (to take effect) on you based on whatever percent they have... my kryss has a 48% HLD... so 48% of my swings will lower your DCI. It lowers it by 25... So let's say HLD has taken effect on you with 0 DCI...

That's a 97% chance to hit. That's insane. You're going to get owned... like... hard... in the face. You can't ever let yourself get hit that often... as a dexer anyway... as an archer it might be ok to run no DCI... As a mage? I couldn't play with no DCI.

Let's say you have 30 DCI when you get hit with HLD, it drops your DCI down to 5%... and you will be hit 69% of the time. That is sooo much better than being hit 97% of the time.

Every geared pvp dexer (every dexer worth anything runs HLD) will have 40+ HCI and HLD. If you don't gear DCI, you're screwed. You'll always get owned. Dexers deal more damage per second than mages and archers and if you can't avoid that damage you're going to die.

How this affects PvM

I think most monsters have under 100 fighting skill. According to Stratics, dreadhorn for instance, has 93 wrestling. So let's assume mobs have 100 fighting skill for our calculation... and a Five on Friday recently said they don't have hit chance or defense chance. If you have no DCI, they have a max chance to hit you around 40%. If you have max DCI that chance to be hit drops to 30%. If you have 120 Parry and no bushido, with a shield, your chance to avoid taking damage on each swing would be less than 20%. If you had 120 parry, 120 bushido, and a 2handed weapon, then your chance to be hit would be just over 16%.

Imagine a character in a 70's suit with max DCI, 120 fighting skill, 120 parry, and 120 bushido. They'd have less than 16% chance to be hit by melee damage from most monsters. Now imagine if they had life leech on their weapon or were running vampire form. With HCI, 120 fighting skill, and were fighting against dreadhorn, you should have about a 90% chance to hit. 90% chance to hit, leeching a bunch of life on each hit, only taking damage 16% of the melee swings and taking lots of damage from spells (hehe). That's how those asian guys tank the dark father.

I'm not saying everyone in PAS that pvps should run out and gear DCI. I don't gear DCI on my necro dexer. I just bloodoath and take the hits. I'm not saying archers should gear DCI either. If you have a lot of trouble with dexers, consider getting it. It helps a LOT.


Updated Comments for DCI on a Mage in PvP - 1/12/09

I tried running 65-70 DCI recently on my mage. Gearing for it isn't as hard as I thought it would be. The idea behind this: After getting hit with HLD, you lose 25 DCI. That reduces 70 DCI to the cap of 45. If your opponent matches your fighting skill and has 45 HCI, then they have exactly 50% chance to hit. That's much better than the 70ish percent chance mentioned in the earlier parts of the post.

20 Aegis of Grace
15 Armor of Fortune
5 Quiver of Infinity
15 Ring
10 Spell book from invasion
65 DCI

If I were willing to use a shield, it'd be even easier. I recommend (with this setup) a shield with DCI and resists, like just one you'd loot and enhance. I like the SC wooden shields with bloodwood enhancement for 2 HP regen too.

It's powerful. I'm able to survive against dexers much better than before. The trade-offs are tough. I think I have about 2 mana regen, but with a few better items it wouldn't be so bad. I hadn't tried it before because I thought it'd be impossible to gear it to 65-70 without uber gear.
Last edited by DevilSpawn on Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
DevilSpawn
PAS Royal Guard
PAS Royal Guard
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:53 pm
Medals: 3
Artemis Entreri Medal of Honor (1) LEAPARD Medal of Justice (1) PAS Royal Guard (1)

Postby Melkezidac » Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:25 am

bump
User avatar
Melkezidac
PAS Elder
PAS Elder
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2006 8:11 am
Location: Ice Isle (Felucca)

Postby The Havoc » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:04 pm

how does parry factor in with dci? i dont know the math of it but i know its hard to hit me with 120 parry and 45 dci which is what i run 99.999999% of the time, so what is the chance of someone with 0 hci hitting me and with 45 hci hitting me?








P.S. roflmfao @ pwn you in your face...... you crack me up man
An army of lions led by a sheep, is easily defeated by an army of sheep led by a lion.
User avatar
The Havoc
PAS Arch Knight
PAS Arch Knight
 
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:13 pm
Location: Odessa, Texas

Postby DevilSpawn » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:21 pm

Ok, good question. I didn't describe what would happen in PvP with parry.

Essentially the answers are 32.5% of the time and 22.4% of the time. (I think)

Chance to parry is a different equation that comes after the chance to hit one is rolled. When you parry, you're actually being hit and then rolling to parry and succeeding.

If you have DCI, 120 fighting skill, they have HCI, 120 fighting skill... and are trying to hit you... It's 50/50 on whether they'll hit or not. If you have 120 parry, 0 bushido, using a 1h weapon and a shield (which you commonly do Havoc) then you have a 32.5% chance of being hit. If they put HLD on you, you have a 39.3% chance of being hit. Parry actually makes HLD less effective by the way the ordering in the equations works. It decreases your DCI which makes you get hit more (a lot more, from 50% of the time to 60% of the time), but at the same time it has no effect on your parry, which still has a straight 35% chance to parry whatever blow actually hits you. So, since you're getting hit more when you have HLD on you, you're also parrying more.

If you have DCI, 120 fighting skill, they have 120 fighting skill but NO HCI, then it's 34.5% chance to be hit. If you have parry, then the final chance to actually be hit (to take dmg, swings that hit you and you don't parry) would be 22.4% of all swings coming to you.

I hope I helped.
DevilSpawn
PAS Royal Guard
PAS Royal Guard
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:53 pm
Medals: 3
Artemis Entreri Medal of Honor (1) LEAPARD Medal of Justice (1) PAS Royal Guard (1)

Postby Horizon » Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:13 am

Wow, thats a huge factor to fighting anything in this game. Thanks DS.

You also helped me understand a little about %lower defense. I see it on weapons all the time, but I never understood what it was for.
Horizon
Healer
Healer
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:40 pm

Postby Sepuku » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:31 pm

sweet post
User avatar
Sepuku
PAS Elder
PAS Elder
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:30 pm

Postby Bart Simpson » Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:56 pm

thank you very much. now i know how i'm gonna redo my template. wanted to try something new and you just opened my eye's a ton.
User avatar
Bart Simpson
PAS Arch Knight
PAS Arch Knight
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:48 pm
Location: nj

ha

Postby reddogg » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:37 pm

1 breath in an out
2 wat is a the havoc
3breath in an out
User avatar
reddogg
PAS Elder
PAS Elder
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:06 pm

Postby Maldar » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:30 pm

Wow! That was excellent!
Thank you! You obviously put a LOT of time and effort into this info.
*Goes to totally rework characters*
User avatar
Maldar
PAS Elder
PAS Elder
 
Posts: 1156
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: Who knows?
Medals: 3
One Eyed Jack's Stand of Cour (1) Zerena Medal of Sacrifice (1) SilverHawk Medal (1)

Postby DevilSpawn » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:26 am

Edited primary post for update on some recent testing. (Just the dated stuff at the bottom of the post)
DevilSpawn
PAS Royal Guard
PAS Royal Guard
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:53 pm
Medals: 3
Artemis Entreri Medal of Honor (1) LEAPARD Medal of Justice (1) PAS Royal Guard (1)

Postby Killuminati » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:43 pm

ok so, maybe im not grasping the parry thing completely here, but what if your running 120 parry and (soon to be) 120 bush. You explained parry actually hurts your DCI, so what im getting at i guess is since im running bush/parry, does that mean DCI is a bit less important for me? im a pot chuggin mofo so dropping the bush isnt an option for me (plus lightnin strike is a nice compliment for concussion). with the 38% HLD on my diamond mace i use for pvp Ive basically been more worried about HCI than DCI with my template because of the bush/parry, and honestly think i have about 20 dci total on my macer. im just tryin to plug my template into your dci equations i guess :?
Killuminati
Apprentice
Apprentice
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:18 pm

Postby DevilSpawn » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:16 pm

I plan to re-do this post soon, Kil. It'll be much clearer later.

So 120 bush/120 parry means 35% chance to block a hit... after the chance to be hit is checked.

What I meant by DCI reducing your chance to parry...it's kind of silly. The roll to see if you're hit (checking your DCI and weapon skill vs their HCI and weapon skill) comes BEFORE the parry roll. After it decides that you're getting hit, then the game rolls your chance to parry. If we were testing with various levels of DCI and parry/bush, Hmm, lets look at it this way:

You get swung at 100 times... without DCI

you get hit 70 times, say.
You parry 35% of those blows, so you actually take damage like 45.5 times.

Now if we did it again with DCI, you'd get hit 50 times... and then parry 35% of that... so you'd actually take damage 32.5 times.

See what I mean by DCI making you parry less? I shouldn't have included it, really, it's confusing.

Anyway, the best possible way to go is max DCI (so you get hit less often) AND 120 parry/120 bush (so you parry as much as possible to take damage less often)... though DCI does play a lesser role for a bush parry dexer than it does for...say... a pvp mage.

Anyway what are you considering trading off? Bush/Parry 1h dexer like yourself probably should be wearing jewelry with HCI/DCI/Enhance potions plus whatever else... damage increase? Then fey leggings and the quiver to cap your DCI (more than cap is great in pvp because it protects you against HLD)... and then for HCI you could do the tali, ring, brace, and spirit of the totem. If you can't get the resists with that setup, then I'd probably sacrifice the Fey leggings until I could. If you don't have jewelry like I described, work on it--jewelry is the defining part of a dexer suit.

It's preference really anyway..

Don't forget LMC.

Remember kids, this setup is for a 1h weapon (not shield using) bush dexer.
DevilSpawn
PAS Royal Guard
PAS Royal Guard
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:53 pm
Medals: 3
Artemis Entreri Medal of Honor (1) LEAPARD Medal of Justice (1) PAS Royal Guard (1)

Postby Killuminati » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:11 pm

so in a sense, after the whole hci vs dci equation hits, i basically stack my chance to parry on top of that? im not really looking at dropping anything, i just have this feeling i need to work on my gear for pvp, like i dont do as well as i should (with that said, i dont do too bad for myself as it is)...

-spirit of the totem -Rune Beetle Carapace -Leggings of Bane -stormgrip -MR2 Arms(good resists) -lmc7 mempo(great resists) -quiver of infinity -totem of the void -Bracelet: dci 10 ep 20 -Ring: hci 11 ep 25
-Diamond Mace Mana Leech 52% HLD 38% Life Leech42% SSI 20%

123 str 116 dex 39 int (in gear of course)

this gives me 5 mr, 17lmc, 2 hp regen, 46 hci, and *cough* 15% dci.. and 45% EP. (can drop dci to put all my resists near 70). oddly enough, most of my issue seems to be with hitting my target. between the pots, parrybush, and the tiny dci i have, i dont seem to have a major issue with dyin quick or gettin hit a whole lot.
im just confused cuz with my setup, it seems like the exact opposite should be happening to me


--ok this is the last time ill edit. i almost turned this into more of a real time blog or something. i aquired a nice 20 ep 11 hci 10 dci bracelet and a 14 dci 23 di 8 lmc bracelet. im at 29 dci and 46 hci now andcan increase to 43 dci with a 44 hla and 43 hld 14 dci diamond mace (but no ssi). lmc is at 39%. still have 20 of my original 45% ep. i at least have enuff now to stay above 0% if i get hit with hld. and i tried some 1v1 and did really well with this setup, im thinkin i might just be getting hit with hla when im missing a lot>?
Killuminati
Apprentice
Apprentice
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:18 pm

Postby Khan OSG » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:15 am

When AoS debuted, I was the first person on Sonoma AFAIK to realize the power of HCI/DCI jewelry. The equation was also different at first: instead of an additive effect to skill, it was multiplicative. So with equal skill meaning a 50% chance to hit, my 22% HCI jewelry meant I had a 61% chance to hit.

Eventually the secret came out, and the equation was toned down as overpowered. Nonetheless, every serious PvPer ran around with at least 45 DCI, preferably 70. Until Publish 81, you could overcap DCI, preferably to 70%, so that when you were hit with Hit Lower Defense, the -25% DCI meant you still had 45% DCI.

With Publish 81, the effect of Hit Lower Defense has changed: it reduces the target to 35% of its original DCI. HLD reduces standard 45% DCI to 16%, and the new maximum of 70% DCI to 24%.

Parry is still unchanged. It's separate from DCI. The combat formula determines the chance to hit, and if the hit is successful, then there's a separate formula to determine if the hit is parried (30% with 100 parry, 0 bushido, 100 dexterity).

http://uo.stratics.com/content/skills/parrying.php
Khan OSG
Apprentice
Apprentice
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:32 am

....

Postby KDSonoma » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:30 pm

thanks for the update on this!

I still like the cut of your jib (even more now).

:)

KD
KDSonoma
King of Sonoma
King of Sonoma
 
Posts: 5448
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:28 pm
Location: Austin, Texas

Next

Return to Template discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron